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| classical guitar why not acoustic tuners http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=2926 |
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| Author: | billb [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:41 pm ] |
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Of course I'm new to building, so I have all kinds of questions. Why are classical guitar tuners and acoustic guitar tuners different? Why is the placement different? Why don't classical guitars have acoustic type tuners? Is it because of the nylon strings? |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:29 pm ] |
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Yes Bill it is because of the use of nylon strings, they generate less force so the classical tuners have to stand up to less tension. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:22 am ] |
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Bill, Yours is an excellent question. I believe it is mostly a matter of tradition as to why classical guitars don't use steel-string tuners. Of course, winding a lot of material around a narrow post might be a problem, but if the string is cinched up tight before winding, it seems doable. In fact, Janet Marlow owns a fretless Godin 6-course (11-string) nylon-string that uses standard steel-string enclosed tuners. I had an opportunity to play it breifly and it seems to work just fine with them. After examining it, I started getting some ideas for an experimental nylon string, and I do plan to use steel string tuners on it. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | billb [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:51 am ] |
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great. Thanks for the info Micheal. I've seen nylon string guitars that use acoustic tuners, but most classicals use the other type. That's what brought up the question. Nice ten string by the way. And thanks for the vids and the info on your sight. I'm going to be building a ten string eventually. I also play classical guitar and I find that a six string can be limiting sometimes. Russell could you explain a little more about less tension? Thanks |
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| Author: | Pete Licis [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:59 am ] |
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I suppose one thing that you may want to consider is that if you put steel string tuners on a classical, someday, somewhere, someone may end up for whatever reason stringing it up with steel strings. Ouch. Bye-bye top/bridge. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:22 am ] |
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Less tension is real simple. Steel takes much more force to stretch than nylon way more. Don't quote me on this but I believe steel strings typically takes about 50lbs more tension to stretch to pitch than nylon and that is per string. |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:39 am ] |
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Michael, Depending on string gauge of course, the difference between nylon and steel is more on the order of 50-100 lb. for the entire set. Still, it's enough to pull off the bridge on a nylon string and possibly fold up the instrument. Especially when this person tries to tune the guitar and ends up tuning the strings way too high, cuz they don't know what they're doing in the first place. Best, Michael |
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| Author: | billb [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:27 pm ] |
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Yes I am aware of that MichealP, but I still don't see how tension matters. It's a tuning peg. You tune it to the correct pitch and then you play. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:17 am ] |
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It is true the steel string post type tuners are way more than strong enough but are a good bit heaver than classic slot heads, less weight is great and the mass will affect the resonace of the neck. My comments were intertwined with that thought and Pete's thread about somone try to string up a classical that had steel string post type tuners with steel strings. the top and bridge of a classical is much tinner than that of a steel string and that is where the extra tension would be bad news. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:14 am ] |
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Nylon stretches a lot more than steel. It takes several turns around the big barrel of a nylon string tuner to get the string up to pitch, while steel strings typically don't take more than one or two on a much smaller roller. When you put on a set of steel strings they usualy hold pitch pretty well right away, but nylons keep stretching, sometimes for a day or two. It's actually a problem with Flamenco guitars that use pegs: sometimes you run out of peg before the string is up to pitch, and sometimes wen you've had the strings on a while you have to unwind them, pull tem tight, and re-wind so that they don't run down into the headstock. You can use steel string tuners with nylon, but you're a lot more likely to run out of room to wind the string on. |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:22 am ] |
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Remember, the original style of tuner for guitar was a vertical, wooden, peg. Of course, those were very light in weight, and that's a strong consideration. Other than weight and the problem of string diameter, there's no reason to not use steel-string tuners. However, those ARE important factors. |
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| Author: | billb [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:59 pm ] |
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CarltonM, Yes they are important factors. I know about the design of the first tuning pegs and that sort of reinforced my question. I see there is more to it now. Alan Thanks a lot for the informative answer. I play classical, so I am aware of string stretch, but I guess I didn't think about it thoroughly. I see they could be used now, but there is definite advantage to using the classical tuners. I guess I'm trying to understand the classical guitar a bit more and why it's the way it is. I understand a lot of factors of it's make, but there are still some things thank beg to question, for myself that is. |
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